R&D: Hockey Summit 16'

[Jeff]

CHECK-OUT THE NEW WEBSITE (The SFHL Board will still be used but to a lesser extend as all roster movements will be done on site, and keeping FB Page
www.fantrax.com/premiumLeague.go?gameId=400
we will also make this board easier and cleaner to access info

GM's will be FB and or PM on PW for there groups board this will cut down on insane amount of post and we can actually figure out a few things. I believe this league is good but needs a little tinkering to be the best. I hope you all agree and will see you in the fall @ the Draft. Enjoy the summer
Commish J.V

Hockey Summit 16'
Goals & Keys
1. CREATING A FUN, EVER-LASTING LEAGUE OF HOCKEY GM GENTLEMEN
2. KEEPING FANS & TEAMS ENGAGE THROUGHOUT THE FULL HOCKEY SEASON
3. USER FRIENDLY & SIMPLE APPS & NEW SITE FANTRAX

10th YR Anniversary - 2017-18 Season
Draft on Location Fall of 2017

[grasser]

For everyone who is in on these R&D Hockey Summit groups (A B C) who hasn't given their input, please do so asap. There's no point in waiting to the last minute to get this shit done. The earlier it is all sorted the better - for everyone, so we all have an idea early on of what the season will be and any changes for it and the future.

Or, if guys don't want to/can't/whatever, can we start doing this as a collective board to get those with opinions on it all working toward a final product? It's August 1... Be nice to get things sorted and the league opened up by this date or mid-month this year and each year going forward

[Jeff]

Okay Lads we will get finalize before next weekend, the plan is to have Fantrax & App up and running soon

Everyone is saying the same thing we need to keep teams engaged/interested in & around the X-Mas Break and beyond in the dark cold months of Jan-Feb. Draft is still the high-light of the year!
Reminder this league was created to be FANTASY armchair Gm's, have fun and chat about hockey with keen interest of being hockey geeks/scouting. Lets have the best interest for the league of 16, not as individuals. 

Talking-Points

****Format -Debate is keeping Roto vs Head-2-Head (3 different styles) everyone has option on this...lets find common ground
1. Do we do head-2-head for 1yr and re-evaluate (all season)
2. Roto then change after X-Mas to Head-2-Head (1-16, 2-15, etc) & having Champ & Consolation Side 
3. Roto All Season, side Elite 8 play for $ & 4th entry and Bottom 8 -play for lottery or 1st overall entry pick
4. Roto All Season & League Cup Battle starting at Xmas till season end 

• (1) starting at X-MAS 2 wks per standings at the time 1v16, 2v15 etc 
• (2) starting Mid-Jan 2wks per outcome in round (1) winner of game 1 vs loser of game 8
• (3) Feb-March Elite 8 (winners per round 2) & Play-Down Finals (losers per round 2)

Fantrax - DONE DEAL !  TEAM FEE increase to $75 ? 
Spilt the pot if we went Roto&H2H(Roto = same per payout for 1st-2nd-3rd) & (H2H Winner $400) 
Site Cost - approx. $70-85 

Scoring System Cats- Status Quo, there was some mention about add/subtracting cats same old ones 
there was mention if we add combo stat of Hits/Shot Blocks and or just one.

CAP/TAG- some felt it was either or not both, was looking for something "fantasy fun" most agree keep 5M cap
and some had interest in the tag.

Draft - Keep, interest in getting a few more picks in the 4th round (presently at 4 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Elite 8 Winner) examples to add Gm of the Year, maybe H2H Top Teams, Couple Mentions on doing up the lottery/draft order different to combat teams not keen on doing lineups in late winter (Jan-Mar) I feel if we play for it via H2H that could stop it...one suggestion 
16- 6th, 15-7th, 14-8th, 13-9 Lotto, 8-9th and so on with 1st having last pick @ 16th


Keepers it looks like we will be lowering keepers going fwd (17-18 Season) most felt 12 was  good number, some wanted to alternate between 15 and 12, but keeping prospect limit 100/60, vs increasing -kinda defeats the purpose from one gm 



New Business 
If everyone was good with the talking points (Roster Sizes, etc )there was no need to add 

[rack55]

Im putting this here so everyone can see it, I really think it might be worth looking into... Started out as a crazy idea but the more I ponder it the more it seems to make sense.

Thoughts??

Use the European model and split the league into 2 tiers, 1st to 8th in Tier 1 and 9th to 16th in Tier 2.

Player pool remains the same, trading allowed between pools, free agency etc all one big pot. But - the 2 tiers play separate roto seasons.

At the end of the year, the top 2-3 teams from Tier 2 get promoted to Tier 1, and the bottom 2-3 from Tier 1 get relegated to Tier 2. There is a Tier 1 champion and Tier 2 champion, with cash/picks etc awarded to top 3 in each Tier.

Entry pick draft order is determined by the final standings like this:

Tier 2
1st place - #1 entry pick
2nd place - #2 entry
3rd - #3
And so on to #8

Tier 1
1st place - #16 pick
2nd - #15 pick
And so on

Pros
-provides incentive for every team in the league - top 4 teams fighting for Tier 1 title, next 4 teams fighting to stay in top tier. 8th-12th best teams now battling for a championship & promotion to the top tier. And the bottom 4 teams will want to finish as high as possible for better entry picks.
-more trades & participation as now everyone should want to improve - everyone has a shot at something at the trade deadline
-Keep interest of more GMs as they are not out of it at Xmas
-ideas have been thrown around of having a bottom 8 tourney where the winner gets the 1st overall entry etc. One major downside to this is that teams in 6-8th or so would tank to get into the entry tournament rather than slug it out in the elite 8. This format here eliminates that incentive, as there would be no reward for a "tank" until 2 seasons later.

Cons
-maybe the split to 2 leagues isn't ideal? I don't know, would love to hear what others think
-logistics of 2 leagues with 1 player pool - but I'm pretty sure Fantrax has settings for this, to have 2 divisions that don't cross over in the same league.
-guys who get relegated may not be enthusiastic about playing in Tier 2 the next year - although I feel the incentive created of going for the #1 entry pick & promotion back to Tier 1 should cover this

[cam]

Love the creative ideas. I'm definitely up for a change like this, and would hop on board if the majority likes Dan's idea.

Thanks Virgo for gathering all the ideas here.

Personally, I'd prefer the full year roto, with the two H2H tournaments (1-8 for cash, 9-16 for draft order)... $75 buy in ($50 for roto, $25 for H2H). I like Dan's idea too... Just worried about how guys in tier 2 would start feeling about the pool over time.

My thoughts as far as the tanking concern... guys trying to fall in to the 9-16 tourney for draft position. 1. I think most guys would rather be in elite 8 where the cash is (at least I would) as anything can happen H2H. 2. If it's a real concern, let's make a group of 3 guys in charge of tanking. If they agree that someone has tanked then they can re-assign a team's ranking for H2H tournament. But by tanking I mean guys sitting impact players on purpose or ignorance. Teams should be able to re-build at/before trade deadline. If that sinks them from say 7th to 9th place, then so be it. We're not going to find the perfect system.

Regardless of the changes, let's agree soon and start up the offseason. I have a lot of $6 mil players to trade to you hacks.

[rack55]

It's a crazy idea I know. I hope some guys who typically finish in the bottom 4-5 chime in. If those guys don't like it it's not worth doing, as it would likely end up becoming a contraction of the league to 10 teams, which is not at all what we want.

I've had a number of 7-9th place finishes and I know that something like this would have really created some excitement for me later in the year, rather than just sit and watch coach run away with it.

[grasser]

We can throw as many good ideas around as we want (which we have) but nothing will get sorted if it's just the same 6 guys talking every time. We need the other 8-10 teams to speak up and have an opinion on the league's future.

I like the 2 tier thing and would be fine with it if it was put in - though I agree with Came in saying the guys who get stuck in tier 2 for 3 or 4 years and can't win promotion/a top lottery pick may not be so keen on staying in the league if they feel they never get a shot at a proper rebuild/get stuck in no man's land. I just can't see the bottom 8 guys right now agreeing to be in a league where they don't have a shot at winning the title for two years.

As for the tanking/dropping in to the lower bracket - I see what Cam is saying ($ and a shot at glory) but at the same time if someone like McDavid is available, there would be a pull at dropping down and going for him to go after the title the following year.

We want participation and to keep everyone involved all year - sure a format change can help but in the end it is going to come down the GMs wanting to still be involved. Roto for the year, sweet 16 or elite 8/lottery 8 tournaments at the end with more on the line ($$ and entry position) makes the most sense I think. And as Cam has mentioned - if the team who wins the lottery bracket has dealt their pick away - we give them a sandwich pick between round 1 and 2 as their reward for winning it.

[cam]

Solid discussion. Remember, in the "McDavid" year scenario we would have guys monitoring and enforcing guys benching players and not setting their best lineups. Ranking Penalties could be handed out. Therefore, guys would really need to get involved and get damn creative to put themselves in a position to lose out on elite 8, yet win "battle of the basement." That would be the involvement we're looking for.

[rack55]

We've almost never issued tanking penalties despite talking about it every year. It's not gonna happen. Who wants to be on the committee of assholes that takes away the 1st overall pick from a guy? Just asking for issues in my opinion.

[cam]

Use to always be on Commish which wasn't fair. Who's the bigger asshole... The tanker, or the guys who call him out?

But really, I don't think there's anyone in the league that would do a dirty tank as strategy.

[grasser]

Aug 5, 2016 15:48:51 GMT -5 rack55 said:

We've almost never issued tanking penalties despite talking about it every year. It's not gonna happen. Who wants to be on the committee of assholes that takes away the 1st overall pick from a guy? Just asking for issues in my opinion.

Yah, fair enough. And fair to what Cam has said. The three of us can talk all day about pros and cons of all of the ideas but what we need is the guys like the Kings Flames Blues Leafs and newbies like Sea Lions and Americans to give us their opinion on how they would like to see it go. We can't really get anything moving without thoughts from them. Or we do and we decide what happens and they just have to deal with it haha. Hopefully that's not the case.
PE boys - we could use your assistance getting these guys to log on for 2 mins and give opinions. Help us out!

[melcher]

People that participate, aren't stuck in the basement. I feel everyone that tries, has been in the top 8 at some point. Injuires/retires/player starts playing like crap or turns into a star happens. That when we get movement, my best year was last year, I was a regular bottom 8 guy.
I'll play devils advocate. We can't force guys to participate. Odds are these changes won't change a damn thing. Sure it would be great if they did, but nothing is a sure thing. The bottom guys just need to focus on drafts, and know what star players to hang onto (I learned that lesson).
In saying that, I like the 2 tier system, tanking doesn't mean they would win tier 2. Could be a huge waste of time. But, I do see a tier 2 helping the bottom guys focus on still winning. Again, it doesn't take much to improve a couple spots like 14th to 10th, 16th to 1st...apparently. just need to try.

[cam]

Yea, you guys are right. Calling guys out for tanking isn't the answer.

What if teams in the middle of the pack, say 7-10, go to a quick lottery to see what tourney they enter. In other words, put the 4 team names in a hat, first 2 out play in elite 8, next 2 out play in basement battle. Should mitigated some tanking. No perfect solution here though.

[drail]

I'm a fan of trying to make changes to improve the interest in the league but I think it's really hard to eliminate all the problems. I have yet to a part of a pool that hasn't had its share of issues, unless it was a box pool with no moves or trades involved. I think the ROTO system we use is the main issue because if a team is weak in a few specific stats, it's a lot of work and very time consuming to make trades to improve those stats to have a chance to win.
I understand that the idea is to try and make the pool as close to being a real GM as possible but that is also the reason we’re pushing people away. We need to make changes to limit the amount of time needed online to have a competitive team, if not, a couple years from now we will only have half the teams still remaining.

That being said, I’m not a fan of a 2 tier system at all. This will just create a bunch of other issue that will have to be resolved next year or the year after, like discussed previously. I’m also not a fan of the H2H idea either. Teams can have an off week or not play in as many games as their opponent and lose the week based on bad luck.

Now let’s get to the real issue with the pool and I'm a bit surprised it has yet to be mentioned, GOALIES! Everyone knows if you don't have good goaltending or your top goalie gets hurt you have no chance in winning (Roach's team last year) and that’s why at Christmas time we see teams decide to give up and sell off their assets. The best way I see the league being more competitive for everyone is to eliminate the 2 crappy goalie stats, GAA and SO's to lessen the value of Goalies. I’m also a fan of getting rid of SHP. A stat that you can't trade for has no business being in a ROTO pool.

My favorite option of all is changing the stats to a point based system, this would make it a lot easier for all teams to compete and make trades a lot easier. This would have to be something we would figure out based on which stats were most important. One thing that’s for sure, the best goaltenders stats would be worth a lot less than the best forward. This way if my goaltending sucks, I could have the best skaters and actually still have a chance to win. I think the pool has got stagnant for a lot of GM’s and changing it to a different scoring format could be best.

[rack55]

I agree with the goalie stat issue, and we've always been improperly skewed towards goalies (old timers remember the games started stat!)
I'm 99% sure with Fantrax we can assign values to stats, so that we could keep all the goalie stats but make them worth 0.5 roto points. Ie the leader will have 8 points, not 16. This would keep the stats in while lowering the importance of tenders.